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OhioHawk07 said...
Because that's where the talent is...? Sorry, but the state of Florida, according to 247 had 242 players rated at a 3☆ or better. How much of the east coast would one have to cover to find that much talent?
I mean if Bowling Green University can go into Florida and pull out 8 recruits, 5 of whom are 3☆, one of which is a stud SDE recruit we would've loved to have had at Iowa, I cannot see the logic of abandoning this state.
I for one am getting tired of the "we need a coach with contacts in this state or that state"...how hard is it to pick up a phone and introduce yourself to a high school football coach and say "I'd like to come down and talk to you about so and so..."?
Maybe they can think about that on their cruise.
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u2Hawk said...
Like any sales job (yes, coaches have to sell Iowa to recruits), YOU GO KNOCK ON THE DOORS AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF!!!!!
No connections in Florida? Travel to some of the top high schools producing talent and introduce yourself. Build relationships with their coaches. The same should be done in California. It's never too late to start.
It's kind of like cold-calling telemarketing. Sure, you may get the door slammed in your face or phone hang ups, but there will always be a chance something positive can come of it.
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Legend1991 said...
I agree with Todd and think it's a good idea to get out of Florida for right now. People need to realize that even when we tried we hardly ever found a guy that ended up doing anything at Iowa. I would much rather focus on Texas, Ohio, Illinois (obviously), and along the east coach.
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OhioHawk07 said...
Because that's where the talent is...? Sorry, but the state of Florida, according to 247 had 242 players rated at a 3☆ or better. How much of the east coast would one have to cover to find that much talent?
I mean if Bowling Green University can go into Florida and pull out 8 recruits, 5 of whom are 3☆, one of which is a stud SDE recruit we would've loved to have had at Iowa, I cannot see the logic of abandoning this state.
I for one am getting tired of the "we need a coach with contacts in this state or that state"...how hard is it to pick up a phone and introduce yourself to a high school football coach and say "I'd like to come down and talk to you about so and so..."?
Maybe they can think about that on their cruise.
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Some people seem to think that the athletes in Texas and Florida are better than the athletes of the Mid West. In a way it is right but that sentence fails to tell the story. This is how I see it and keep in mind I lived in Texas for just over 30 years and played football there. I also lived in Florida and I have family that lives there, so I see the kids up close.
#1 The players down south have sports year round! As a kid my friends and I could have football, baseball, basketball, soccer, you name it, all year! If it snowed then we would play that afternoon when it melted. About 5 years before I moved here, we had a Christmas where the temp was 85. No kidding, it's usually cooler than that but you get the point.
If kids stay active all year then they are in better shape and they learn the game by playing it instead of by playing a video game. My nephews in Florida play in a baseball league twice a year. They start the second one about the time that kids in Iowa knock the dust from their balls (pun intended).#2 Coaching!!! Many serious coaching candidates want to be in those states because of the reasons that I mentioned above. They want players that they can train year round!
#3 Football is HUGE in those states and because of that and family tradition, the percentage of kids playing the sport is higher than in the Mid West (I have never seen any hard numbers to back that up but I really belive that it is true). I can't stress to you strongly enough how big football is in Texas.
Coaching makes a difference and players training all year make a big difference and family tradition plays a HUGE part in it.
So what do we have when we compare those players to Iowa recruits? Imo, Iowa coaches have done a great job of building up players and helping them train all year. With the indoor field the guys can get what the southern schools already have and they don't have to deal with 110 temps either. But how do we know if they are as good as Texas and Florida recruits? They may be behind them in some ways and probably are, but with the training and a GREAT strength coach Iowa can even the playing field.
I remember after we played Georgia Tech in the Orange Bowl, I read where one of their players said that they were shocked at how big and athletic Iowa's players were. How could he say that if Southern players are better? The coaching staff knows that enviorment is the key. There is no food or water that the south has that makes those guys the way they are. It's only the enviorment and it was recreated here to a large degree by the coaches. Once the freshman join the fold then the ones that are behind the others, start to join them when they get the chance to train year round.
Thank you for reading my two somewhat worthless cents.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by CrestHawk69 on 2/20/2013 at 2:03 PM
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Todd Worly said...
Without being an insider on BG's recruiting efforts, I admit I'm not 100% sure about this, but I would assume they've got at least one coach with deep ties to Florida.
It's certainly possible to build relationships there, but that takes time (years) to do. Meanwhile, other schools that already have deep ties there are continuing to strengthen those relationships. And with the time it takes to build relationships in a place like Florida, it's pretty realistic that it wouldn't begin paying off until 3-4 years down the road. In the meantime, all that time and effort spent in Florida is time and effort that wouldn't be spent with recruits in places where Iowa is more likely to land a quality recruit, so then Iowa might become even less successful in those areas over the next few years. In the long term, this strategy may pay off, but that's not easy for a coach to willingly sacrifice in the short term on the recruiting trail in this day and age.
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CrestHawk69 said...
Some people seem to think that the athletes in Texas and Florida are better than the athletes of the Mid West. In a way it is right but that sentence fails to tell the story. This is how I see it and keep in mind I lived in Texas for just over 30 years and played football there. I also lived in Florida and I have family that lives there, so I see the kids up close. #1 The players down south have sports year round! As a kid my friends and I could have football, baseball, basketball, soccer, you name it, all year! If it snowed then we would play that afternoon when it melted. About 5 years before I moved here, we had a Christmas where the temp was 85. No kidding, it's usually cooler than that but you get the point. If kids stay active all year then they are in better shape and they learn the game by playing it instead of by playing a video game. My nephews in Florida play in a baseball league twice a year. They start the second one about the time that kids in Iowa knock the dust from their balls (pun intended).
#2 Coaching!!! Many serious coaching candidates want to be in those states because of the reasons that I mentioned above. They want players that they can train year round!
#3 Football is HUGE in those states and because of that and family tradition, the percentage of kids playing the sport is higher than in the Mid West (I have never seen any hard numbers to back that up but I really belive that it is true). I can't stress to you strongly enough how big football is in Texas.
Coaching makes a difference and players training all year make a big difference and family tradition plays a HUGE part in it.
So what do we have when we compare those players to Iowa recruits? Imo, Iowa coaches have done a great job of building up players and helping them train all year. With the indoor field the guys can get what the southern schools have already and they don't have to deal with 110 temps either. But how do we know if they are as good as Texas and Florida recruits? They may be behind them in some ways and probably are, but with the training and a GREAT strength coach Iowa can even the playing field. I remember after we played Georgia Tech in the Orange Bowl, I read where one of their players said that they were shocked at how big and athletic Iowa's players were. How could he say that if Southern players are better? The coaching staff knows that enviorment is the key. There is no food or water that the south has that makes those guys the way they are. It's only the enviorment and it was recreated here to a large degree by the coaches. Once the freshman join the fold then the ones that are behind the others, start to join them when they get the chance to train year round.
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OhioHawk07 said...
A great look there Crest.
A couple of things. Its not just that its a higher percentage, its also that there are simply far more kids playing in the South than in the Midwest. Population trends show that families are moving into the South more and more.
And also, the recruits and players we had in that Orange Bowl were better than what we have now. Particularly on the defensive side of the ball.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by CrestHawk69 on 2/20/2013 at 2:28 PM
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Todd Worly said...
That's interesting - thanks for sharing. In that case, I would imagine one of the head coach's main goals when building his staff was to be as active as possible in Florida. Sounds like it's starting to pay off for them. Do you know if those four coaches previously had experience recruiting in Florida, or if they're doing it for the first time at BG? This could be an interesting test case.
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OhioHawk07 said...
The OC, Warren Ruggiero has none that I can see. Coached at Hofstra, K State, Elon before BG, along with Defiance college in Ohio and Glenville St in WV. Graduated from Delaware in '88.
The DC, Mike Elko has none that I can see. Coached at Penn, US Merchant Marine Academy (!), Fordham, Richmond, Hofstra and BG.
The grad assistant, Ian Pace, graduated from Fordham in '09
The secondary coach, Nick Monroe coached at Colgate before BG, so I'm gonna say no to him too.
All guys with ties to the Northeast.
They had 3 kids from Florida in 2012, but 7 in 2011. Most of those in '11 were low level 2☆'s, but they've trended upwards.
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Todd Worly said...
Just wanted to weigh in on the dialogue between Crest and OhioHawk about the talent in Florida/Texas/California versus the Midwest. First of all, great discussion here. I'm really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this.
You guys make great points about the ability to train year-round, the cultural emphasis on the sport and the population trends. Another thing to consider is the way high school coaches are compensated. My understanding is that high school coaches in Texas make much, much, much more than they do in just about any other state in the country. Many head coaches make over $100,000 and have zero teaching obligations. I personally know several assistant coaches in Texas that make 60-65 and teach four periods per day, max. They aren't coordinators, they're position coaches. On the other hand, in most other states, even the head coaches are just making a relatively small stipend, and the assistant coaches make even less than that, and also have to teach 6-7 periods a day, and they're teaching salaries are much less as well. For that reason, the quality of coaching and strength training that the kids in Texas are exposed to is far superior to any other state.
As Crest pointed out, I think the playing field ultimately evens out once the kids get to the college level and are exposed to the same level of coaching and strength training. But I do think this is a significant issue in the evaluation of prospects, because a lot of kids in Texas may look much better relative to kids elsewhere due to those aforementioned advantages. With that in mind, some of them may not have as high of a ceiling, while the ceiling for kids from other parts of the country might be much higher. IMO, this is one major reason (the incredible disparity between the level of coaching and strength training that high school kids are exposed to) why so many recruits slip through the cracks every year.
Another thing, and you guys sort of alluded to this, but I don't think the kids are made any differently down in the south, in TX or in CA than kids in the Midwest. Keep in mind that CA, TX and FL are the three most populated states in the country (NY and FL are very close, but NYC - a city that produces very few elite college football players per capita - accounts for the majority of that). With that in mind, it's no surprise that the sheer number of prospects each of those states turns out will be higher than an OH, PA or IL.
With those two factors in mind, I really don't think there's a long term difference between the per capita quality of prospects produced by any of those states versus an OH or PA. With Iowa having a much, much better shot at landing the top (or close to the top) prospects in OH/PA as opposed to CA/TX/FL, I think it makes the most sense to double down in those two midwestern states and hit them harder than ever before.
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Legend1991 said...
Bielema recruited all of those players. He's now been gone for the last 10-11 years.
2003: 0 of 1 Chris Brevi (MISS): Transfered
2004: 1 of 1 Damian Sims (HIT)
2005: 0 of 2 Vernon Jackson (MISS): Transfered Kalvin Bailey (MISS): Transfered
2006: 0 of 2 Lance Tillison (MISS): Never factored into two deep Troy Johnson (MISS): Never factored into two deep
2007: 0 of 1 Jevon Pugh (MISS): Transfered
2008: 0 of 2 Jeff Brinson (MISS): Transfered David Blackwell (MISS): Academics
2009: 0 of 1 Josh Brown (MISS): Transfered
2010: 0 of 1 De’Andre Johsnon (MISS): Transfered
2011: To Be Determined Torrey Campbell: TBD Jake Rudock: TBD
2012: To Be Determined Damantas Venckus: TBD Greg Mabin: TBD
It hasn't worked out for Iowa in Florida for a long time.
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FG80 said...
I know someone who coached HS ball in Missouri. He made Mo. teaching salary money but only had to teach one class of weight lifting.
The playing field may level out eventually, but the problem is that Ferentz's system seems to be set up to bring people in, get them on the wt. lifting program and develop them to be good players by their RS soph year. That would have worked better in the good ol' days but these days with the 85 limit and injuries and people leaving, you don't always have time to develop your entire recruiting class. If you don't recruit any of these players who train year round and are ready to go their frosh year, you are going to be treading water. Ferentz almost always used to RS every player coming in but now doesn't have that luxury.
Ferentz has never made it a secret that he hates recruiting. I don't think we see the same effort with our recruiting that some of the other schools have. He hates it and he hasn't sent his OC and DC out recruiting. I feel our efforts and attitude toward recruiting are two of the main reasons we continue to be a middle of the pack B1G school. I think we should be always be in the upper half of the league. We have the money and better facilities than other B1G schools that we can't surpass.We aren't taking advantage of it. Our recruiting expenditures reflect that.
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Todd Worly said...
Just wanted to weigh in on the dialogue between Crest and OhioHawk about the talent in Florida/Texas/California versus the Midwest. First of all, great discussion here. I'm really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this.
You guys make great points about the ability to train year-round, the cultural emphasis on the sport and the population trends. Another thing to consider is the way high school coaches are compensated. My understanding is that high school coaches in Texas make much, much, much more than they do in just about any other state in the country. Many head coaches make over $100,000 and have zero teaching obligations. I personally know several assistant coaches in Texas that make 60-65 and teach four periods per day, max. They aren't coordinators, they're position coaches. On the other hand, in most other states, even the head coaches are just making a relatively small stipend, and the assistant coaches make even less than that, and also have to teach 6-7 periods a day, and they're teaching salaries are much less as well. For that reason, the quality of coaching and strength training that the kids in Texas are exposed to is far superior to any other state.
As Crest pointed out, I think the playing field ultimately evens out once the kids get to the college level and are exposed to the same level of coaching and strength training. But I do think this is a significant issue in the evaluation of prospects, because a lot of kids in Texas may look much better relative to kids elsewhere due to those aforementioned advantages. With that in mind, some of them may not have as high of a ceiling, while the ceiling for kids from other parts of the country might be much higher. IMO, this is one major reason (the incredible disparity between the level of coaching and strength training that high school kids are exposed to) why so many recruits slip through the cracks every year.
Another thing, and you guys sort of alluded to this, but I don't think the kids are made any differently down in the south, in TX or in CA than kids in the Midwest. Keep in mind that CA, TX and FL are the three most populated states in the country (NY and FL are very close, but NYC - a city that produces very few elite college football players per capita - accounts for the majority of that). With that in mind, it's no surprise that the sheer number of prospects each of those states turns out will be higher than an OH, PA or IL.
With those two factors in mind, I really don't think there's a long term difference between the per capita quality of prospects produced by any of those states versus an OH or PA. With Iowa having a much, much better shot at landing the top (or close to the top) prospects in OH/PA as opposed to CA/TX/FL, I think it makes the most sense to double down in those two midwestern states and hit them harder than ever before.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by lumuhawk on 2/20/2013 at 5:09 PM
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lumuhawk said...
Todd, great post. I hear that a lot about various programs in Texas.
But, the interesting dicotomy is the fact that I'm told Florida coaches don't reap the same benefits as coaches in Texas. So, if true, how is that Florida continues to churn out a disproportionate number of elite athletes, from, let's say a state like NY? It can't be coaching in Florida. It has to be strictly the natural talent and the amount of time spent playing football - which is why Iowa shouldn't be saying that the benefits of an increased presence on the east coast equates to Florida. I'm not sure if there is a successful school in the nation that ignores Florida except for maybe Cali or Texas schools.
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Todd Worly said...
Was your friend in Missouri a position coach, or the head coach? It does happen every now and then in other states where the head coach has a set up similar to that. And in Ohio, I've heard that there have been head coaches that make over $100,000 without having to teach. But whereas that's very common in Texas, it may be the case at less than five schools throughout Ohio. And the assistants at those schools aren't getting anywhere near the set up that they get in Texas.
I don't think you necessarily need to regularly bring in prospects that can contribute (beyond special teams) as a true freshman. The key is to minimize your misses each year, so the vast majority of recruits you sign develop into solid contributors at the very least.
Regarding recruiting, I'd honestly be surprised if more than 25% of college coaches actually like it, yet they all know they have to do it. So I'm not sure Ferentz's dislike for it is overly relevant. He and/or his staff don't have to like it in order to do well at it. I've said multiple times that I disagree with his approach of not sending his coordinators on the road as much as other schools do. I think that definitely hurts Iowa. But I don't think he takes that approach just because he doesn't like recruiting.
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DieHardHawk said...
Good discussion.
Getting back to the original thought regarding abandoning Florida, my take is that Iowa should recruit every state, but do so with efficiency in mind. There's no point chasing the "belle of the ball" only to lose out on all the other dates.
What I would like to see is Iowa take advantage of its reputation at the OL and TE positions. Our program is well-represented in the NFL at those positions, and we shouldn't sell ourselves short in terms of how that is perceived by recruits. As far as I'm concerned, the coaches should be reaching out to every top level recruit in the country at those particular spots to gauge interest. If a blue-chip player lights up a little, we should jump at the opportunity. We may not land him, but there is at least a reasonable chance, AND, perhaps even more importantly, that allows us to gain access to that coaching staff and develop those relationships that are extremely important and could pay off down the road.
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Iowa Not Spending Time Recruiting Florida Any More?